Wheel down is the safe way to land on water. I believe that "wheeling it
on", in other words, not a minimum energy landing is the way to go.
Locking the wheel brake (for gliders which have wheel brakes actuated by
other than the dive brake handle) might be a good idea. Bush pilots land
wheeled airplanes on water frequently. They lock the wheel brakes and
hydroplane on the surface right up to sandbars. What one bush pilot told
me was that in a Super Cub, as long as you were at 30 mph or above, the
plane would just ride along on the surface as if you were on pavement.
Even to the point that a hard touchdown would result in a bounce. I
wouldn't have believed him but he showed me videos of him and his
buddies landing on lakes. He also said that it was important to pick a
sandbar that was long enough to get back to 30 mph before you hit the
water. So, for water landings, it would be wheel down, brakes locked if
possible, land just like wheeling a 2-33 on at the local field.

Hope I don't ever have to try it out.

Whatever slows you down in the least amount of time from the fastest impact
is the wrong thing to do. I think I'd take the less speed, as long as the
touchdown was under control. I think that the skiing time with the wheel
down would be measured in fractions of a second even with excess speed.

I have experienced the skiing trick in a J-3. On touchdown there is a
noticeable deceleration and it takes extra power to keep it going. Take away
that power and I think we would have been tail over nose within the length of
the plane, from what would otherwise be a standard wheel it on landing.
The technique of locking the brakes probably has more to do with how much
water you want on the wings versus the skiing effect. The roostertails from
the rotating wheels was impressive. I also think that the depth of the water
is a factor. My experience was in the deep part. Anything over a few feet is
probably called deep.

Using that experience, I would assume that the wheel down glider would not
travel more than a couple of feet before the wheel would submerge. I would
also assume that the glider would stop much more rapidly with the wheel under
the water.

The idea that the fuselage would be sucked down by it's shape (gear up) will
be a terrible surprise to all those boaters out there with upturned stems.
Maybe we need to advise them to put a wheel under the bow so that the
boat will settle into the water easier and won't slow down as fast?




In article >,
Wallace Berry > wrote:
>Wheel down is the safe way to land on water. I believe that "wheeling it
>on", in other words, not a minimum energy landing is the way to go.
>Locking the wheel brake (for gliders which have wheel brakes actuated by
>other than the dive brake handle) might be a good idea. Bush pilots land
>wheeled airplanes on water frequently. They lock the wheel brakes and
>hydroplane on the surface right up to sandbars. What one bush pilot told
>me was that in a Super Cub, as long as you were at 30 mph or above, the
>plane would just ride along on the surface as if you were on pavement.
>Even to the point that a hard touchdown would result in a bounce. I
>wouldn't have believed him but he showed me videos of him and his
>buddies landing on lakes. He also said that it was important to pick a
>sandbar that was long enough to get back to 30 mph before you hit the
>water. So, for water landings, it would be wheel down, brakes locked if
>possible, land just like wheeling a 2-33 on at the local field.
>
>Hope I don't ever have to try it out.
>

"deb" > wrote in message
nk.net...
<snippage>
> The idea that the fuselage would be sucked down by it's shape (gear up)
will
> be a terrible surprise to all those boaters out there with upturned stems.

It won't be a surprise to anyone who's tried to tow a canoe at high speed.
It won't be a surprise to anyone who has put a spoon in the water from the
kitchen faucet.
It wouldn't be a surprise to Glen Curtiss.

This really _has_ been done to death here. Google is your friend.

Tim Ward

Did I see on a website... maybe it was DG that did a test of landing a
sailplane on the water and made the following comments

The Sailplane will dive and strike the bottom in shallow water with
injury to the pilot...

They recommened if a landing were to be made on water... gear down in
a water landing.

I found this curious (power planes land better with gear up) but my
take is that no mater what... its going to be submarine time and with
the gear down more momentum would be lost on the surface portion as
well as the underwater maneuver.

Although from the article I believe that they did not recommend water
landing in any event.

I would have thought the glider shape would have a hydorplane
effect... but I will assume that the drag of the water will lower the
nose and once the tip of the nose were to submerge... things would
happen fast!


I would not want to find out what that ride would be like.







(deb) wrote in message t>...
> Whatever slows you down in the least amount of time from the fastest impact
> is the wrong thing to do. I think I'd take the less speed, as long as the
> touchdown was under control. I think that the skiing time with the wheel
> down would be measured in fractions of a second even with excess speed.
>
> I have experienced the skiing trick in a J-3. On touchdown there is a
> noticeable deceleration and it takes extra power to keep it going. Take away
> that power and I think we would have been tail over nose within the length of
> the plane, from what would otherwise be a standard wheel it on landing.
> The technique of locking the brakes probably has more to do with how much
> water you want on the wings versus the skiing effect. The roostertails from
> the rotating wheels was impressive. I also think that the depth of the water
> is a factor. My experience was in the deep part. Anything over a few feet is
> probably called deep.
>
> Using that experience, I would assume that the wheel down glider would not
> travel more than a couple of feet before the wheel would submerge. I would
> also assume that the glider would stop much more rapidly with the wheel under
> the water.
>
> The idea that the fuselage would be sucked down by it's shape (gear up) will
> be a terrible surprise to all those boaters out there with upturned stems.
> Maybe we need to advise them to put a wheel under the bow so that the
> boat will settle into the water easier and won't slow down as fast?
>
>
>
>
> In article >,
> Wallace Berry > wrote:
> >Wheel down is the safe way to land on water. I believe that "wheeling it
> >on", in other words, not a minimum energy landing is the way to go.
> >Locking the wheel brake (for gliders which have wheel brakes actuated by
> >other than the dive brake handle) might be a good idea. Bush pilots land
> >wheeled airplanes on water frequently. They lock the wheel brakes and
> >hydroplane on the surface right up to sandbars. What one bush pilot told
> >me was that in a Super Cub, as long as you were at 30 mph or above, the
> >plane would just ride along on the surface as if you were on pavement.
> >Even to the point that a hard touchdown would result in a bounce. I
> >wouldn't have believed him but he showed me videos of him and his
> >buddies landing on lakes. He also said that it was important to pick a
> >sandbar that was long enough to get back to 30 mph before you hit the
> >water. So, for water landings, it would be wheel down, brakes locked if
> >possible, land just like wheeling a 2-33 on at the local field.
> >
> >Hope I don't ever have to try it out.
> >

Uk (and other nationals) glider pilots competing in Scandanavia had to
land on lakes many times as there was no where else.

The technique used was the wheel down low energy landing.

I seem to remember the wheel down bit was to pre-break the water
tension.

I don't think they locked the breaks. Not a good idea to add extra
workload when attempting something new already!

Andy Henderson



"Tim Ward" > wrote in message >...
> "deb" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> <snippage>
> > The idea that the fuselage would be sucked down by it's shape (gear up)
> will
> > be a terrible surprise to all those boaters out there with upturned stems.
>
> It won't be a surprise to anyone who's tried to tow a canoe at high speed.
> It won't be a surprise to anyone who has put a spoon in the water from the
> kitchen faucet.
> It wouldn't be a surprise to Glen Curtiss.
>
> This really _has_ been done to death here. Google is your friend.
>
> Tim Ward

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 12:39:16 -0500, Wallace Berry
> wrote:

>Wheel down is the safe way to land on water. I believe that "wheeling it
>on", in other words, not a minimum energy landing is the way to go.
>Locking the wheel brake (for gliders which have wheel brakes actuated by
>other than the dive brake handle) might be a good idea. Bush pilots land
>wheeled airplanes on water frequently. They lock the wheel brakes and
>hydroplane on the surface right up to sandbars. What one bush pilot told
>me was that in a Super Cub, as long as you were at 30 mph or above, the
>plane would just ride along on the surface as if you were on pavement.
>Even to the point that a hard touchdown would result in a bounce. I
>wouldn't have believed him but he showed me videos of him and his
>buddies landing on lakes. He also said that it was important to pick a
>sandbar that was long enough to get back to 30 mph before you hit the
>water. So, for water landings, it would be wheel down, brakes locked if
>possible, land just like wheeling a 2-33 on at the local field.
>
>Hope I don't ever have to try it out.


Now that is impressive! A whole new meaning to aquaplaning!
I'm not about to try this in the BD4.

Mike Borgelt

Wallace Berry > wrote in message >...
> Wheel down is the safe way to land on water. I believe that "wheeling it
> on", in other words, not a minimum energy landing is the way to go.
> Locking the wheel brake (for gliders which have wheel brakes actuated by
> other than the dive brake handle) might be a good idea. Bush pilots land
> wheeled airplanes on water frequently. They lock the wheel brakes and
> hydroplane on the surface right up to sandbars. What one bush pilot told
> me was that in a Super Cub, as long as you were at 30 mph or above, the
> plane would just ride along on the surface as if you were on pavement.
> Even to the point that a hard touchdown would result in a bounce. I
> wouldn't have believed him but he showed me videos of him and his
> buddies landing on lakes. He also said that it was important to pick a
> sandbar that was long enough to get back to 30 mph before you hit the
> water. So, for water landings, it would be wheel down, brakes locked if
> possible, land just like wheeling a 2-33 on at the local field.
>
> Hope I don't ever have to try it out.


Water Landings:In order of importance
Gear Down
At least 2M of water depth- err on deeper side if in doubt.
Minimum energy
Parallel to shore
Into wind

From a pilot survival,and secondarily, glider damage point of view a water
landing is safer than a landing in trees.
AND much more embarassing when your friends hear about it.
UH

I have heard that story also! Of course Super Cubs have big tires! I
sure like to see some footage of that kind of taxiing. I think it is
very important to have the brakes locked! With the wheel turning it
would not make as good a skid, because all the water all over it. I
would have the brake on, even if it meant to have the spoilers all
open. One would have to carry more speed! 30 mph with a cub 40 mph
with a sailplane should do it. Not many pilots know how to "wheel" a
plane on, since most glider landings are stall landings. However
Pilots flying off busy airports more likely make wheel landings in
order to have the energy to roll off the runway before stopping. So,
possibly wheel landings should be practiced with gliders and
taildragers!

I wonder whether a Bonanza would hydroplane with, say, 70 mph? Guess
it depends on the water surface. Come to think of it, Geese have
their "Gear" down when they water land, they also carry some extra
speed?





Wallace Berry > wrote in message >...
> Wheel down is the safe way to land on water. I believe that "wheeling it
> on", in other words, not a minimum energy landing is the way to go.
> Locking the wheel brake (for gliders which have wheel brakes actuated by
> other than the dive brake handle) might be a good idea. Bush pilots land
> wheeled airplanes on water frequently. They lock the wheel brakes and
> hydroplane on the surface right up to sandbars. What one bush pilot told
> me was that in a Super Cub, as long as you were at 30 mph or above, the
> plane would just ride along on the surface as if you were on pavement.
> Even to the point that a hard touchdown would result in a bounce. I
> wouldn't have believed him but he showed me videos of him and his
> buddies landing on lakes. He also said that it was important to pick a
> sandbar that was long enough to get back to 30 mph before you hit the
> water. So, for water landings, it would be wheel down, brakes locked if
> possible, land just like wheeling a 2-33 on at the local field.
>
> Hope I don't ever have to try it out.

A little snag in your thinking: When you do this in a glider, the intention
is not exactly taxiing but getting the thing to a full stop. So if you want
to carry an extra 10mph when touching the water, you'll get what you pay
for.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"soarski" > a écrit dans le message de
om...
<snip>One would have to carry more speed! 30 mph with a cub 40 mph
> with a sailplane should do it. Not many pilots know how to "wheel" a
> plane on, since most glider landings are stall landings. However
> Pilots flying off busy airports more likely make wheel landings in
> order to have the energy to roll off the runway before stopping. So,
> possibly wheel landings should be practiced with gliders and
> taildragers!
> Wallace Berry > wrote in message
>...
> > Wheel down is the safe way to land on water. I believe that "wheeling it
> > on", in other words, not a minimum energy landing is the way to go.
> > Locking the wheel brake (for gliders which have wheel brakes actuated by
> > other than the dive brake handle) might be a good idea. Bush pilots land
> > wheeled airplanes on water frequently. They lock the wheel brakes and
> > hydroplane on the surface right up to sandbars. What one bush pilot told
> > me was that in a Super Cub, as long as you were at 30 mph or above, the
> > plane would just ride along on the surface as if you were on pavement.
> > Even to the point that a hard touchdown would result in a bounce. I
> > wouldn't have believed him but he showed me videos of him and his
> > buddies landing on lakes. He also said that it was important to pick a
> > sandbar that was long enough to get back to 30 mph before you hit the
> > water. So, for water landings, it would be wheel down, brakes locked if
> > possible, land just like wheeling a 2-33 on at the local field.
> >
> > Hope I don't ever have to try it out.

Any thoughts on unlocking the canopy so it doesn't get stuck or somehow bind
thus making it harder to open, especially if you find yourself upside down?

"Hank Nixon" > wrote in message
om...
> Wallace Berry > wrote in message
>...
> > Wheel down is the safe way to land on water. I believe that "wheeling it
> > on", in other words, not a minimum energy landing is the way to go.
> > Locking the wheel brake (for gliders which have wheel brakes actuated by
> > other than the dive brake handle) might be a good idea. Bush pilots land
> > wheeled airplanes on water frequently. They lock the wheel brakes and
> > hydroplane on the surface right up to sandbars. What one bush pilot told
> > me was that in a Super Cub, as long as you were at 30 mph or above, the
> > plane would just ride along on the surface as if you were on pavement.
> > Even to the point that a hard touchdown would result in a bounce. I
> > wouldn't have believed him but he showed me videos of him and his
> > buddies landing on lakes. He also said that it was important to pick a
> > sandbar that was long enough to get back to 30 mph before you hit the
> > water. So, for water landings, it would be wheel down, brakes locked if
> > possible, land just like wheeling a 2-33 on at the local field.
> >
> > Hope I don't ever have to try it out.
>
>
> Water Landings:In order of importance
> Gear Down
> At least 2M of water depth- err on deeper side if in doubt.
> Minimum energy
> Parallel to shore
> Into wind
>
> From a pilot survival,and secondarily, glider damage point of view a water
> landing is safer than a landing in trees.
> AND much more embarassing when your friends hear about it.
> UH

I've thought about water landings and I'd also make sure all the straps of
my parachute were released (though I'd keep my seat belts on) and possibly
the canopy jettisoned in case I had to evacuate quickly. I think you could
drown in deep enough water with a parachute strapped to your back.

Barb 18

"Doug" > wrote in message
news:bes5b.344473$Ho3.50568@sccrnsc03...
> Any thoughts on unlocking the canopy so it doesn't get stuck or somehow
bind
> thus making it harder to open, especially if you find yourself upside
down?
>
> "Hank Nixon" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Wallace Berry > wrote in message
> >...
> > > Wheel down is the safe way to land on water. I believe that "wheeling
it
> > > on", in other words, not a minimum energy landing is the way to go.
> > > Locking the wheel brake (for gliders which have wheel brakes actuated
by
> > > other than the dive brake handle) might be a good idea. Bush pilots
land
> > > wheeled airplanes on water frequently. They lock the wheel brakes and
> > > hydroplane on the surface right up to sandbars. What one bush pilot
told
> > > me was that in a Super Cub, as long as you were at 30 mph or above,
the
> > > plane would just ride along on the surface as if you were on pavement.
> > > Even to the point that a hard touchdown would result in a bounce. I
> > > wouldn't have believed him but he showed me videos of him and his
> > > buddies landing on lakes. He also said that it was important to pick a
> > > sandbar that was long enough to get back to 30 mph before you hit the
> > > water. So, for water landings, it would be wheel down, brakes locked
if
> > > possible, land just like wheeling a 2-33 on at the local field.
> > >
> > > Hope I don't ever have to try it out.
> >
> >
> > Water Landings:In order of importance
> > Gear Down
> > At least 2M of water depth- err on deeper side if in doubt.
> > Minimum energy
> > Parallel to shore
> > Into wind
> >
> > From a pilot survival,and secondarily, glider damage point of view a
water
> > landing is safer than a landing in trees.
> > AND much more embarassing when your friends hear about it.
> > UH
>
>

Don't forget, in the unlikely event of a water landing, you can use
your seat cushion as a floatation device.

"BMacLean" > wrote in message >...
> I've thought about water landings and I'd also make sure all the straps of
> my parachute were released (though I'd keep my seat belts on) and possibly
> the canopy jettisoned in case I had to evacuate quickly. I think you could
> drown in deep enough water with a parachute strapped to your back.
>
> Barb 18
>

Yes, but they had the bombs spinning opposite to the
direction of travel mostly to produce gyroscopic stabilisation
but also to get a higher bounce. If they'd spun the
bombs with the direction of travel they would have
been stabilised but wouldn't have bounced enough.

Therefore, if you could drive a glider wheel backward
during a water landing you would aquaplane further,
but locking the wheel is the best you can get.

The LS's are the best for this, I'm pretty sure if
I was forced into a water landing I'd be braced against
the rudder pedals :)

At 05:12 05 September 2003, Steve Pawling wrote:
>You need to see the movie 'The Dambusters' to see how
>this works and
>follow their technique. It's been a long while since
>I've seen the
>movie but if I recall correctly, they tried having
>the bomb spinning
>before dropping it onto the water.
>
>Steve
>LS-3a AM
>
>>snip
>> Not really! I am looking for enough speed to hydroplane,
>>with a
>> smaller wheel than the super cub. If I go too slow
>>the wheel will not
>> plane, and the AC will go on it's nose, dive. If in
>>fact I am able to
>> plane, after loosing speed while doing so, I should
>>slowly sink like a
>> waterskier that lost the towrope.
>>
>> The trick seems to be, to fly the plane on, not to
>>stall it on. I
>> believe those bush pilots! After all, if a 1 ton car
>>can hydroplane
>> why not a sailplane with a much lower footprint. I
>>have not tried it,
>> but I would take my chances with a locked wheel and
>>enough speed.
>> Naturally this could not be done with any kind of
>>waves!
>>snip
>

On 4 Sep 2003 21:23:08 -0700, (Steve Pawling)
wrote:

>You need to see the movie "The Dambusters" to see how this works and
>follow their technique. It's been a long while since I've seen the
>movie but if I recall correctly, they tried having the bomb spinning
>before dropping it onto the water.
>
....and it was spinning at 500 rpm against natural wheel rotation to
maximise the speed difference between the cylindrical bomb casing and
the water surface and hence to improve its chances of (1) skipping
along the surface and (2) to prevent it trying to climb the dam's
inner face.

This tells us that having the wheel brake on is A Good Thing if you
want to aquaplane as much as possible.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

"Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
...
> On 4 Sep 2003 21:23:08 -0700, (Steve Pawling)
> wrote:
>
> >You need to see the movie "The Dambusters" to see how this works and
> >follow their technique. It's been a long while since I've seen the
> >movie but if I recall correctly, they tried having the bomb spinning
> >before dropping it onto the water.
> >
> ...and it was spinning at 500 rpm against natural wheel rotation to
> maximise the speed difference between the cylindrical bomb casing and
> the water surface and hence to improve its chances of (1) skipping
> along the surface and (2) to prevent it trying to climb the dam's
> inner face.
>
> This tells us that having the wheel brake on is A Good Thing if you
> want to aquaplane as much as possible.
>
> --
> martin@ : Martin Gregorie
> gregorie : Harlow, UK
> demon :
> co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
> uk :
>
And bounce right into that dam at the end of the lake?...